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NFC North Championship Game ~ Packers (Rodgers) @ Bears (Cutler) - Week 17 3:25pm CST (FOX)

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  Re: NFC North Championship Game ~ Packers (Rodgers) @ Bears (Cutler) - Week 17 3:25pm CST (FOX)
#81

Posted: December 29, 2013, 11:42 PM Post
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Check out the box score for the Minnesota tie:

http://espn.go.com/nfl/boxscore?gameId=331124009

GB missed a 2pt conversion at nearly the exact same time in the 4th quarter...potentially cost them a win.


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  Re: NFC North Championship Game ~ Packers (Rodgers) @ Bears (Cutler) - Week 17 3:25pm CST (FOX)
#82

Posted: December 30, 2013, 8:16 AM Post
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What you're missing in wanting to wait to go for 2 until you absolutely have to is that in most of those cases, you are totally screwed if you don't convert. Additionally, looking back and saying, "If they wouldn't have gone for 2 'early,' and missed, they might have cost themselves the game," is results-oriented thinking.

Let's look at a hypothetical, yet common situation:

Packers are losing by 15 and score a TD around the beginning of the 4th quarter. Deficit is now 9. Many coaches consider this "too early" and decide to kick the XP to go down 8, rather than trying to make it an 7-point deficit with the 2-point conversion. After all, if they miss, it's a two score game, but if they kick the XP, they can still tie later with the 2-point conversion. 4th quarter proceeds, deficit remains at 8 and the Packers finally score a TD with 15 seconds remaining. They go for 2, miss, and now there's not enough time left, barring a miracle, to have any chance to win the game.

If they go for 2 and miss it on the preceding TD, yeah it stinks that they are down 9 instead of 7 or 8, but now there is enough time left to game plan for multiple scores.

Bottom line: if you know (or believe) you are going to need a 2-point conversion at some point, you want to go for it earlier so that you have time to make up that extra score should you fail, rather than waiting until the eleventh hour when it's do-or-die.

In the Packers' situation yesterday, they should've gone for 2 with 11+ minutes left to try to tie up the game. Realistically, there's little difference between being down 2 and being down 1 in that situation. Sure, you are in worse shape if the Bears score a TD after you miss the conversion, but you can't work on the assumption that you're going to give up another TD at that point in the game. There's little enough time left that no more scores for either team is a distinct possibility, as is just a FG by the Bears. Obviously, a Bears TD is really bad, but that's worst-case scenario. The other, very possible scenarios that don't involve the Packers scoring first hurt your team in a way that could have been prevented via the 2-point conversion (and I'm guessing that their combined probabilities was greater than a Bears TD).


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  Re: NFC North Championship Game ~ Packers (Rodgers) @ Bears (Cutler) - Week 17 3:25pm CST (FOX)
#83

Posted: December 30, 2013, 8:29 AM Post
Posts: 312
Also if you kick the XP and the Bear score a TD you will now have to go for two if you score a TD with even less time remaining so that of you don't succeed you have less time to make up the points.

Knowing how many scores you need as early as possible is always better.

EDIT: The table from Football Commentary shows that Packers should have went for it if they had a 14% chance of making it:
http://www.footballcommentary.com/twoptchart.htm


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  Re: NFC North Championship Game ~ Packers (Rodgers) @ Bears (Cutler) - Week 17 3:25pm CST (FOX)
#84

Posted: December 30, 2013, 10:33 AM Post
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Posts: 74
dlk9s said:
What you're missing in wanting to wait to go for 2 until you absolutely have to is that in most of those cases, you are totally screwed if you don't convert. Additionally, looking back and saying, "If they wouldn't have gone for 2 'early,' and missed, they might have cost themselves the game," is results-oriented thinking.

Let's look at a hypothetical, yet common situation:

Packers are losing by 15 and score a TD around the beginning of the 4th quarter. Deficit is now 9. Many coaches consider this "too early" and decide to kick the XP to go down 8, rather than trying to make it an 7-point deficit with the 2-point conversion. After all, if they miss, it's a two score game, but if they kick the XP, they can still tie later with the 2-point conversion. 4th quarter proceeds, deficit remains at 8 and the Packers finally score a TD with 15 seconds remaining. They go for 2, miss, and now there's not enough time left, barring a miracle, to have any chance to win the game.

If they go for 2 and miss it on the preceding TD, yeah it stinks that they are down 9 instead of 7 or 8, but now there is enough time left to game plan for multiple scores.

Bottom line: if you know (or believe) you are going to need a 2-point conversion at some point, you want to go for it earlier so that you have time to make up that extra score should you fail, rather than waiting until the eleventh hour when it's do-or-die.

In the Packers' situation yesterday, they should've gone for 2 with 11+ minutes left to try to tie up the game. Realistically, there's little difference between being down 2 and being down 1 in that situation. Sure, you are in worse shape if the Bears score a TD after you miss the conversion, but you can't work on the assumption that you're going to give up another TD at that point in the game. There's little enough time left that no more scores for either team is a distinct possibility, as is just a FG by the Bears. Obviously, a Bears TD is really bad, but that's worst-case scenario. The other, very possible scenarios that don't involve the Packers scoring first hurt your team in a way that could have been prevented via the 2-point conversion (and I'm guessing that their combined probabilities was greater than a Bears TD).


Not only can you not assume the Bears score a TD, you also can't assume we wouldn't have MADE the 2 point conversion. This isn't an onside kick recovery we're talking about. It's one play from the two yard line. League average on 2 point tries is converting about 48.5% of the time, so basically it's 50/50 that we make the conversion. It's way less than 50% that the Bears get the ball and score a TD. Taking the XP was absolutely the wrong decision IMO.


Last edited by brwrsfan on December 30, 2013, 12:29 PM, edited 1 time in total.

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  Re: NFC North Championship Game ~ Packers (Rodgers) @ Bears (Cutler) - Week 17 3:25pm CST (FOX)
#85

Posted: December 30, 2013, 12:01 PM Post
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More lol McCarthy:

With 4 minutes 41 seconds left in the game and his team facing the end of its season, Green Bay Packers coach Mike McCarthy wasn't going to take the gamble it seemed so many were sure was the right decision.

McCarthy wanted to punt.


http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/ ... 24721.html


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  Re: NFC North Championship Game ~ Packers (Rodgers) @ Bears (Cutler) - Week 17 3:25pm CST (FOX)
#86

Posted: December 30, 2013, 4:47 PM Post
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Punting would have been really dumb.


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  Re: NFC North Championship Game ~ Packers (Rodgers) @ Bears (Cutler) - Week 17 3:25pm CST (FOX)
#87

Posted: December 30, 2013, 4:50 PM Post
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endaround said:
Also if you kick the XP and the Bear score a TD you will now have to go for two if you score a TD with even less time remaining so that of you don't succeed you have less time to make up the points.

Knowing how many scores you need as early as possible is always better.

EDIT: The table from Football Commentary shows that Packers should have went for it if they had a 14% chance of making it:
http://www.footballcommentary.com/twoptchart.htm


But if you go for two and miss and the Bears score a TD, you are down two scores.


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  Re: NFC North Championship Game ~ Packers (Rodgers) @ Bears (Cutler) - Week 17 3:25pm CST (FOX)
#88

Posted: December 30, 2013, 5:33 PM Post
Posts: 104
Failing the conversion though can easily also alter the course of the other teams decision making and actually alter their score as well. Quite simply a team that is up 1 point instead of tied is going to play more conservatively, and score fewer points. Way way way too many NFL games end up closer on the scoreboard then they are in real life because of how coaches change their decision making in the 4th quarter, not accounting for that in the decision making is not fair reasoning either. Based on our porous defense I think it was the right call.


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  Re: NFC North Championship Game ~ Packers (Rodgers) @ Bears (Cutler) - Week 17 3:25pm CST (FOX)
#89

Posted: December 30, 2013, 6:18 PM Post
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igor67 said:
Failing the conversion though can easily also alter the course of the other teams decision making and actually alter their score as well. Quite simply a team that is up 1 point instead of tied is going to play more conservatively, and score fewer points. Way way way too many NFL games end up closer on the scoreboard then they are in real life because of how coaches change their decision making in the 4th quarter, not accounting for that in the decision making is not fair reasoning either. Based on our porous defense I think it was the right call.


I agree, but for exactly the opposite strategy. If we are down 9 in the fourth quarter, Chicago clearly runs the ball more than they did and runs out the clock trying to stop us from having two possessions. Instead, by McCarthy continually taking the PAT, he wasn't going to give Chicago the luxury of going up 9. While that decision may damn him into a "do or die" 2pt conversion at the end, atleast he was still in a position to be there. Going down 9 and having the Bears simply milk the clock to rob you of possessions was not going to be effective. As for the final opportunity to go for 2, I think he should have taken it. However, does Chicago alter their game planning on their second to final drive if the score is tied rather than being up 1? Do they play aggressive and beat us rather than conservatively with the lead (they ran a sweep on 2nd and 15 for loss)? If it's tied, are they playing for points instead?


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  Re: NFC North Championship Game ~ Packers (Rodgers) @ Bears (Cutler) - Week 17 3:25pm CST (FOX)
#90

Posted: December 30, 2013, 10:28 PM Post
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Based on our porous defense I think it was the right call.

I agree. That and our short-yardage play calls are absolute garbage. If our back-up QB is in, let's throw a fade to Quarless. If Rodgers is in, KUHN-DIVE!


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  Re: NFC North Championship Game ~ Packers (Rodgers) @ Bears (Cutler) - Week 17 3:25pm CST (FOX)
#91

Posted: December 30, 2013, 10:43 PM Post
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Hey, wasn't someone looking for highlights with the radio play-by-play a ways back?

http://www.packers.com/media-center/vid ... 5094248fdb


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  Re: NFC North Championship Game ~ Packers (Rodgers) @ Bears (Cutler) - Week 17 3:25pm CST (FOX)
#92

Posted: December 31, 2013, 10:00 AM Post
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Posts: 5851
Not in the House of Mulumba
Image

By far my favorite thing to happen in that game.

Also, John Kuhn -- worth every penny.

Will you have this left guard to be the 224th pick?

~ReverendBrewmeister


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  Re: NFC North Championship Game ~ Packers (Rodgers) @ Bears (Cutler) - Week 17 3:25pm CST (FOX)
#93

Posted: December 31, 2013, 6:08 PM Post
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Posts: 362
Enjoyed this analysis of the game: http://www.footballoutsiders.com/clutch-encounters/2013/clutch-encounters-week-17

Interesting: [T]he (Cobb 48-yd TD) play obviously becomes a signature one for Rodgers' career. He's never had a play with a higher win probability boost (+58.8 percent) and of all the times he had led a go-ahead drive with the Packers trailing, none happened this late in the game.


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  Re: NFC North Championship Game ~ Packers (Rodgers) @ Bears (Cutler) - Week 17 3:25pm CST (FOX)
#94

Posted: January 02, 2014, 9:39 AM Post
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Posts: 959
Best of both worlds: Packers go to the playoffs, and the Bears extend Cutler for 7 years (according to my Twitter account; it's not up on ESPN yet).


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