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Penn State: Joe Paterno Passes Away

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  Penn State: Joe Paterno Passes Away
#21

Posted: November 09, 2011, 4:18 PM Post
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This photo from State College is making the rounds on Twitter.   I could hope the outrage is focused on the young victims, but it probably isn't.




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  Penn State: Joe Paterno Passes Away
#22

Posted: November 09, 2011, 4:37 PM Post
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The outrage on campus is definitely not focused on what happened to the children, it is focused (according to CNN's reporting, at least) on the fact that Paterno was fired. I feel bad for these students because they are going to regret acting like this in defense of people who covered up molestation as they get older. I understand that some people say this was a rush to judgment and so are probably protesting on that basis more than on blind faith but I don't really agree. I think the acknowledged facts are bad enough for Paterno and the administration to justify a housecleaning immediately. Paterno may have fulfilled his legal obligation but he really should have cared enough to try to protect Sandusky's victims and he apparently didn't.


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  Penn State: Joe Paterno Passes Away
#23

Posted: November 09, 2011, 6:10 PM Post
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Paterno may have fulfilled his legal obligation but he really should have cared enough to try to protect Sandusky's victims and he apparently didn't.

If the argument is that Paterno's friendship with his long-time (former) assistant clouded his judgment....isn't that exactly why you have a hierarchy in the athletic department for handling cases like this one? Based on what we know, Paterno did not sit on the information, or turn a blind eye to it; he passed it up the chain of command. Maybe there's additional evidence, or other incidents that the general public doesn't know about at this time....but the decision to fire him - after he already offered to resign at the end of the season - does not sit well with me.


Reserving final judgment in case additional details surface, but I'd have let the man have one last run for the Roses.


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  Penn State: Joe Paterno Passes Away
#24

Posted: November 09, 2011, 6:45 PM Post
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bjkrautk said:
If the argument is that Paterno's friendship with his long-time (former) assistant clouded his judgment....isn't that exactly why you have a hierarchy in the athletic department for handling cases like this one? Based on what we know, Paterno did not sit on the information, or turn a blind eye to it; he passed it up the chain of command. Maybe there's additional evidence, or other incidents that the general public doesn't know about at this time....but the decision to fire him - after he already offered to resign at the end of the season - does not sit well with me.

That's not my argument at all. Friendship has nothing to do with it. None of us know exactly what Paterno said to Curley when he reported the incident to him. But, the only explanation for not following up at least once by asking Curley, "hey, why is that guy who raped a 10 year old boy not in jail and still allowed on campus?" is that Paterno and others had created a culture that did not want to know about things that could reflect poorly on the program. There is no other explanation that I can think of. Think of how traumatic this kind of thing is for everybody involved (victims, witnesses, people who trusted the molester, etc.). Then think of how unnatural it is for it to never be brought up again, while the perpetrator continues to have unfettered access to the scene of the crime and continues to run his charity that is devoted to young boys. Paterno did not sit on the information, but he did turn a blind eye to it.

And that all ignores that Paterno only had supervisors to the extent that he allowed them to supervise him. There's a well known story about how the administration tried to fire him in 2004 and he just said, "no, that's not going to happen". Paterno was by far the most powerful person in the athletic department, if not the entire university.

And lastly, if Sandusky was forced out in 1999 because of previous allegations, Paterno didn't just deserve to be fired, he deserves to be in prison, along with Spanier, Curley and Schultz. Because that would mean that, contrary to what he told the grand jury, Paterno would have been aware of a pattern of abuse and enabled a child molester by allowing him to hang around the program with his cadre of young boys. Actually, now that I say that, I think Paterno deserves to be in jail anyway because of the 2002 incident. He allowed a known child molester to have access to facilities where it was known he had raped a young boy. That is unacceptable to me. Maybe it's not to you but I don't get why it wouldn't be. I worked with kids for several years and even we low-paid peons understood that job one was to not let kids get raped. That's the minimum standard. Paterno, Spanier, Curley and Schultz failed miserably in that and it is awful and unforgivable. What makes it worse is that they were probably the highest paid state employees in Pennsylvania and at least Paterno, Curley and Spanier were looked up to and admired by many people for their "leadership" and "integrity". It's enough to make me want to vomit.


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  Penn State: Joe Paterno Passes Away
#25

Posted: November 10, 2011, 1:59 AM Post
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Paterno was either:

1.  Covering this up.
2.  Indifferent or of the attitude that he didn't want to know the details.
3.  Totally incompetent.

Any of those things warranted him being fired.  Easy decision.

Sandusky was in the Penn State facilities just last week.  That's horrifying.


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  Penn State: Joe Paterno Passes Away
#26

Posted: November 10, 2011, 2:16 AM Post
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None of us know exactly what Paterno said to Curley when he reported the incident to him. But, the only explanation for not following up at least once by asking Curley, "hey, why is that guy who raped a 10 year old boy not in jail and still allowed on campus?" is that Paterno and others had created a culture that did not want to know about things that could reflect poorly on the program. There is no other explanation that I can think of.
...
Actually, now that I say that, I think Paterno deserves to be in jail anyway because of the 2002 incident. He allowed a known child molester to have access to facilities where it was known he had raped a young boy. That is unacceptable to me. Maybe it's not to you but I don't get why it wouldn't be.


Sandusky's keys to the Penn State facility were revoked in 2002, during the same month as the incident Paterno reported. The foundation was made aware of the allegation (and I have to say allegation - not because I don't believe it, but because Sandusky is denying it) at the same time.

http://espn.go.com/colleg...enn-state-sex-abuse-case

So, my main problem with your argument is that it doesn't align with the facts as I know them.


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  Penn State: Joe Paterno Passes Away
#27

Posted: November 10, 2011, 2:41 AM Post
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JoeHova said:
The outrage on campus is definitely not focused on what happened to the children, it is focused (according to CNN's reporting, at least) on the fact that Paterno was fired. I feel bad for these students because they are going to regret acting like this in defense of people who covered up molestation as they get older.
I had the same general thought this morning.  For now, I'm willing to consider the "outrage" response to be a knee-jerk reaction borne of shock.  At least, I hope that most if not all of the participating students will some day look back and say, woah, that was bad. 

I hope to never have to test this, but I'd like to think I'd have a reasonably mature reaction if something like this reared its ugly head in Madison or Milwaukee.  Actually, I think my knee-jerk reaction would be stunned silence.


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  Penn State: Joe Paterno Passes Away
#28

Posted: November 10, 2011, 5:45 AM Post
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bjkrautk said:
Sandusky's keys to the Penn State facility were revoked in 2002, during the same month as the incident Paterno reported. The foundation was made aware of the allegation (and I have to say allegation - not because I don't believe it, but because Sandusky is denying it) at the same time.

http://espn.go.com/colleg...enn-state-sex-abuse-case

So, my main problem with your argument is that it doesn't align with the facts as I know them.

Sandusky's privileges weren't revoked. He was still at the facility all the time until as recently as last week and was even allowed to hold overnight football camps at Penn State satellite campuses. Sandusky was not banned from campus until last weekend, which is months after the fact that he was being investigated by a grand jury for child molestation became known.

And think about the perversity of the culture at Penn State. This is a campus where at least 10 adults witnessed or were told directly by eyewitnesses about Sandusky raping children on campus (McQueary, McQueary's father, Paterno, Curley, Schultz, Spanier, the janitor who witnessed Sandusky orally raping a kid in 2000, the at least 2 co-workers he told, and at least 1 supervisor he told). Not one of those 10 people called the police. Not one. I think most adults feel at least a vague imperative to protect children but all 10 of these guys overcame or ignored that imperative because of the culture of the institution they were involved with. It's sickening, just sickening that an organization could allow itself to become what Penn State became. The adults didn't even try find out who the kids were so they could tell their parents that the trusted man who was mentoring their kids was actually raping them! It's unconscionable.


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  Penn State: Joe Paterno Passes Away
#29

Posted: November 10, 2011, 6:21 AM Post
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This could get uglier:

http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/football/news?slug=ycn-10407023


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  Penn State: Joe Paterno Passes Away
#30

Posted: November 10, 2011, 6:32 AM Post
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Oh holy crap. That part had better not be true. Dear... just... damn.

"Thank you, Senator... a thoughtful and lucid answer. YOU WILL BE DESTROYED!" -- Moderator Morbo


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  Penn State: Joe Paterno Passes Away
#31

Posted: November 10, 2011, 6:55 AM Post
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And think about the perversity of the culture at Penn State. This is a campus where at least 10 adults witnessed or were told directly by eyewitnesses about Sandusky raping children on campus (McQueary, McQueary's father, Paterno, Curley, Schultz, Spanier, the janitor who witnessed Sandusky orally raping a kid in 2000, the at least 2 co-workers he told, and at least 1 supervisor he told).

I'm not ready to indict Paterno yet (criminally) in all of this (trial by press is always a bad idea). But the more and more that comes out, there is far too much stink around him for him to be clean. I think it was the right move to fire him.

Even if he did everything morally/ethically/legally right, there are so many people involved in one way or the other (looking the other way) that the house needs purging. Set off a hand grenade and everyone around it gets hurt. Penn State just got nuked.

This could get uglier:

I'm praying this is only rumor (as the author says its unconfirmed), but I have a sinking feeling in my gut that it isn't... WOW the depravity of humanity.


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  Penn State: Joe Paterno Passes Away
#32

Posted: November 10, 2011, 8:38 AM Post
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CheezWizHed said:
I'm praying this is only rumor (as the author says its unconfirmed), but I have a sinking feeling in my gut that it isn't... WOW the depravity of humanity.

Same here.  However the new rumor doesn't seem all that that far fetched.  Sandusky was already able to know which of the kids would "play along' for lack of a better term because he already figured this out for himself.  Just sickening.  IF this is true, I wouldn't be surprised if the board of regents decided to shut down the football program for a while.  As much money as it makes for the school, there might be no other choice seeing how pervasive this scandal has been.


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  Penn State: Joe Paterno Passes Away
#33

Posted: November 11, 2011, 9:08 AM Post
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bjkrautk said:
Sandusky's keys to the Penn State facility were revoked in 2002, during the same month as the incident Paterno reported.
...
So, my main problem with your argument is that it doesn't align with the facts as I know them.

Directly from the Grand Jury presentment (which can be downloaded here):
Both the graduate assistant and Curley testified that Sandusky himself was not banned from any Penn State buildings and Curley admitted that the ban on bringing children to the campus was unenforceable.
From an interview with Packers tight end Andrew Quarless, who played for Penn State from 2006-2009:
(Sandusky) was up there quite a bit, quite frequently in the weight room. I'm not going to lie about that. I never really had a relationship. He didn't coach when I was there. But I did see him frequently using the facilities being at the weight room and stuff like that. But that's about it.
Even more damning is an earlier part of the Grand Jury presentment (emphasis added):
Victim 1 testified that he was 11 or 12 years old when he met Sandusky through The Second Mile program in 2005 or 2006. As with the remaining victims, Victim 1 only came to Sandusky's attention during his second year in the program, when the boy attended The Second Mile's camp on the Penn State University Park campus.

Years after Sandusky had been witnessed by a university employee anally raping a young boy and much of the senior administration knew about these allegations, Sandusky was still using University property to groom his victims. University Park is the main campus of Penn State University, the one located in State College, Pennsylvania, the one called "Happy Valley", the one with the 4th largest stadium in the world, the one all these people worked at. In other words, Paterno and Spanier and everybody let this continue right in their own backyard. Shunting it off to another location would be bad enough but to actually let it continue in locations you have control over is absolutely disgusting. These men allowed Sandusky to continue to use the authority of Penn State Universoty to victimize young boys. It's indefensible.


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  Penn State: Joe Paterno Passes Away
#34

Posted: November 11, 2011, 9:55 AM Post
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And that all ignores that Paterno only had supervisors to the extent that he allowed them to supervise him. There's a well known story about how the administration tried to fire him in 2004 and he just said, "no, that's not going to happen". Paterno was by far the most powerful person in the athletic department, if not the entire university.

This is why I find McQueary to be the least responsible here. What do you think was going through McQueary's head at the time? If he goes to the police, what will Paterno do to him for ratting out his friend? McQueary had to think he would never get a coaching job at Penn State, or anywhere else. If he tried to get a job somewhere else and people called Paterno for a reference, what would Paterno say about him? If Paterno turned a blind eye (or, judging by his glasses, two blind eyes) to this, he certainly would be capable of lying to someone about McQueary. Surely Paterno would disparage him for ratting out his friend.

And if those timelines are correct, the Penn State campus police have a lot of explaining to do after the incident in 1998 and why that was not reported to the real police and why Sandusky was allowed back on campus any time after that. The campus police are as responsible as anyone.

I wonder what the Big 10 does now? Do they "fire" Penn State as a member of their football conference? How do they punish the university without punishing the students that had nothing to do with this? I would think that not allowing Penn State to receive any revenue from bowl games that is split among all the conference schools for several years is the minimum; better yet, make Penn State refund the money they received since 2002. The "Death Penalty", a la SMU, is a very real possibility here.


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  Penn State: Joe Paterno Passes Away
#35

Posted: November 11, 2011, 11:13 AM Post
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I'm not about to defend Sandusky, or the way that the University handled the retirement (which included allowing him an office on campus). I also don't think that being in the buildings or even in the weight room around the Penn State players is inherently problematic (to be blunt about it -- it's not 20-something adults where the problem seems to emerge).

Sandusky met his victims by way of the charity he established using the goodwill from his time spent as a coach / coordinator at PSU. I don't believe that he needed to use the university's facilities any more than Bart Starr would have to use Packers facilities for that purpose were he so inclined (which is not to impugn the charity work of Mr. Starr, or to allege any impropriety, just to draw a more local comparison). Likewise, there are a wide variety of questions that the general public has a right to know, including why Sandusky and his charity were allowed to hold events on the PSU campus in '05-06 after he was banned from bringing children on campus, and everything surrounding the 1998 incident (including the university's legal counsel who reviewed the information having a conflict of interest in that he was also legal counsel for Second Mile, according to the story on Deadspin). I'm even willing to concede that my perspective on the matter would change if those questions can be answered in a way to show that Coach Paterno actively enabled the behavior, or used his position to dissuade the University from contacting the proper authorities.

Based solely on the publicly-available information, though, I still do not like the decision to fire Paterno after he had already fallen on his sword. The guy has been an iconic presence at your university for the better part of the past 5 decades, was not a target of the investigation, and played no role in the abuse....aside from being held to a standard higher than we seem to hold anyone else to.


Along those lines, I hope people are willing to hold the same standards when it's Marquette that's under investigation for failing to report on-campus sexual assualts within the athletic program.
http://www.jsonline.com/n...s-4e30gub-133656848.html


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  Penn State: Joe Paterno Passes Away
#36

Posted: November 11, 2011, 11:43 AM Post
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Reporting child rape to the police is a higher standard than we hold anyone else to? Since when? Are morality and ethics at such a low ebb in this country that simply calling the police about a child molester would be seen as some sort of superhuman feat that only a paragon of virtue could perform? How can that be? This whole thing is perverse in the extreme. I'm coming around to the idea that college athletics are an inherently venal activity if this kind of behavior can be enabled for a decade and then, even after it is exposed, the enabling can be defended by legions of fans. This behavior is indefensible. There is literally no defense that is good enough to excuse the fact that not one of at least 10 adults called the police about 2 rapes that Sandusky was witnessed committing on Penn State's campus, and that at least 9 of those people saw Sandusky around the program on a regular basis and still did nothing to curtail his access to the hundreds of children he was involved with on campus and off.


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  Penn State: Joe Paterno Passes Away
#37

Posted: November 11, 2011, 11:50 AM Post
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bjkrautk said:
I also don't think that being in the buildings or even in the weight room around the Penn State players is inherently problematic (to be blunt about it -- it's not 20-something adults where the problem seems to emerge).

Yes, I'm sure all the parents who sent their kids to Penn State to play for Paterno will be heartened to know that the child molester Paterno kept around the program thought their kids were too old to anally rape in the showers. Similarly, I'm sure the team is relieved to know that it was only young kids being raped in their shower facilities and that players were in no danger.


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  Penn State: Joe Paterno Passes Away
#38

Posted: November 12, 2011, 3:06 PM Post
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JoeHova said:
Reporting child rape to the police is a higher standard than we hold anyone else to? Since when? Are morality and ethics at such a low ebb in this country that simply calling the police about a child molester would be seen as some sort of superhuman feat that only a paragon of virtue could perform? 

It's easy to jump into indignation, but I can't think of any other circumstance where a non-witness to a crime (child molestation or otherwise) has been held culpable for failing to report the crime to the police, when he did report the second-hand information to his employer (who has its own police force capable of investigating), and was singled out by the investigation as not complicit in the offense.

There are situations where federal law requires police notification for sexual assaults.  That is the omission that the University administrators were discharged over, and rightfully so.  If Paterno played an active role in sweeping the matter under the rug...different story.  Because it is a different story, however, I'm not willing to fill in the blanks and set punishment based on my assumptions due to a sense of moral outrage over the nature of the offense.


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  Penn State: Joe Paterno Passes Away
#39

Posted: November 14, 2011, 2:50 AM Post
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This is why I find McQueary to be the least responsible here.

Ah, shucks, I might lose my job, so I'll just forget what I saw that man do to a child in the Penn Stats locker room. Nope, that defense doesn't work for me.

...but I can't think of any other circumstance where a non-witness to a crime (child molestation or otherwise) has been held culpable for failing to report the crime to the police...

I tended to defend JoePa when this all started (see page 1 of this thread) for the reasons bjkrautk mentioned. None of us truly know what JoePa was told exactly. Based on reputation, I wanted to give him the benefit of the doubt.

But as more and more stories about "stuff" came out, there was just too much dirt flying around. Even if, by chance, JoePa was perfectly innocent (in the coverup), Penn State HAD to clean house. They HAD to show that they were serious about this. If they even gave the impression of a flippant attitude towards this, they might as well close up the doors.

BTW, hats off to the Penn State fans for wearing their blue colors (traditional color to remember child abuse) instead of the traditional white. Double hats off for the moment of prayer (rather than the PC moment of silence).


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  Penn State: Joe Paterno Passes Away
#40

Posted: November 14, 2011, 4:19 PM Post
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Bob Costas interviewed Jerry Sandusky by phone.  To me, Sandusky sounded like a guy who knows he is doomed.


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